So, as I’ve started reading the Book of Mormon again, I wondered why, in the heading Nephi wrote to the book of 1st Nephi, which obviously is written after they have taken the ship and landed in the promised land, he started the summary only listing 4 sons of Lehi, when in fact at the time of writing his younger siblings had been born.
The only explanation I can give is that he started his record abridging content from other records, rather than starting from a completely blank sheet of paper to introduce his family, and his other records begin with just four sons. An interesting question to me, with perhaps broader implications than what I’ve discovered.
[The following are comments on this entry. A significant restatement of my testimony of the Book of Mormon can be found in my response, here]
Jesus Defender – 2017-08-19 18:43:51-0400
The Book of Mormon predicts that the Lamanites (American Indians) would soon change to white skin colour.
Continue reading JesusDefender response
“Many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people.” 2 Nephi 30:6.
Dark skinned Mormon Indians have never become lightened due to their holding Mormon doctrines. Indian murals show Indians of 4 skin colours, all living peaceably.
Question: If the light skinned Nephites were wiped out in 421 AD as the Book of Mormon claims, why are both light and dark skinned Indians portrayed in later wall paintings at Bonampak and Chichen-Itza?
The Book of Mormon is wrong on Indian warfare.
It is mostly a book of wars, oppression, slavery, treachery and bloodshed. The writer has an obsession with warfare and killing, with killings starting from Chapter 4. Weapons used from 544 BC to 52 BC (p107-359) are listed as bows and arrows, steel swords, axes, brass and copper breastplates, shields, horses and chariots, and cimiters.
Question: What is wrong with this picture? Almost everything.
The author knew almost nothing about early American life, lack of warfare, and politics. Early Americans from 600 BC to 421 AD had very little interest in war, and had no occasion for war because:
a) They spent most of their time farming.
b) They had no great cities of great population as are mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
c) Mongoloids have a different philosophy of life and war than Europeans and Semites.
d) Early Americans knew nothing of iron and steel for swords, until the Spaniards came.
e) Breastplates of brass and copper were unknown then.
f) Cimeters were curved swords used by Persians, Arabs and Turks, only appearing 1000 years later (1400 AD).
g) Arm shields and axes of metal were not yet invented in America.
h) The earliest metals in America were gold beads dated 600 AD. Copper, bronze, and silver came much later, when smelting was invented.
i) Horses and chariots were not used in America before the Spanish conquest.
j) The wheel was never used in America before the Europeans came. Roads were pedestrian roads approaching the temples, and were not built in the Book of Mormon period
k) The sinewed bow and arrow of the American Indians came 600 years later, after 421 AD. They instead used an atlatl, or throwing stick.
l) Wars of conquest were unknown because the gaining of new territory for occupation was unnecessary, as there was plenty of room for all Indians.
The Book of Mormon forgets that glass windows were not invented in 2200 BC at the Tower of Babel.
(The first glass vessels were invented around 1500BC in Egypt. The
first window glass was invented around 50AD. World Book Encyclopedia.
Jared and others supposedly migrate from Mesopotamia to America when the Tower of Babel was built. For light in their boats, God was supposed to have given them luminous stones.
“For, behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces.” Ether 2:23.
Smith did not know that the Phoenicians had not yet invented glass.
Amazingly, 50-80 people sailed for 344 days, without any loss of life, or running short of food.
Darkness covered the whole earth at Christ’s crucifixion for 3 hours (Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33), but the Book of Mormon mistakes it to be 3 days (Helamen 14:20,27).
Smith thought that Elijah (O.T.) and Elias (N.T. spelling) were different people.
They are the same person. Elijah is the Old Testament name, and Elias is the New Testament name. This is found in “Doctrines and Covenants” Section 109 and 110:11-13, which is devoted to a prayer offered at the dedication of the temple in Kirtland, Ohio, March
27, 1836, where Smith states: “The Lord appeared, … Moses appeared before us… Elias appeared… After this vision was closed another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood
Elijah and Elias are the same person. What a blunder! Elijah and Elisha are distinguished correctly in Luke 4:25,26: “Many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias (Elijah)… Many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus (Elisha) the prophet; and none of them was cleansed saving Naaman the Syrian.” Once this revelation was presented as the word of God, there was no easy way to correct
The Book of Abraham Fraud
This is found in the Mormon scripture known as “The Pearl of Great Price”. Joseph Smith in 1835 purchased an ancient Egyptian papyrus found in mummy wrapping acquired by Michael H. Chandler. Smith, believing that he had the gift of interpreting ancient Egyptian, claimed that the rolls contained the writings of Abraham himself, signed personally by Abraham.
In 1842, Smith published his translation under the title “The Book of Abraham” in “Times and Seasons”. He claimed that a picture in it was Abraham sitting on Pharaoh’s throne.
These papyri were lost for many years, but they turned up and were presented to the Mormon Church by the Metropolitan Art Museum of New York on November 27, 1967.
When translated, they found that not a single word of Joseph Smith’s translation was correct. The text had nothing to do with Abraham, but described magical spells to open the mouth of the dead to prepare him for his audience with Osiris to be judged. Hence
Joseph Smith’s translation of Egyptian is proved false.
Many earthquakes with great destruction and loss of life supposedly accompanied Christ’s death, to show God’s displeasure. Mormons claim that this took place in Yucatan in Mexico.
This is an area of flat jungle on limestone, which has been free from earthquakes. Ruins here date from 150 AD or later, not before. What is wrong with this passage?
a) Jesus rebuked James and John for wanting to call down fire from heaven to destroy the scoffing Samaritans.
b) The inhabitants of America were no greater sinners than the chief priests who demanded Christ’s death. Christ did not curse them, but prayed for their forgiveness.
c) Calvary was an act of mercy, not of destruction. No one died in the Jerusalem earthquake, nor when the temple veil was torn. So why should many people die in America who were not responsible for Christ’s death? 3 Nephi 8:1-24.
d) Christ came to save men’s lives, not destroy them. Smith never understood God’s mercy and grace to man at Calvary.
How can Helaman 12:26, supposedly written in 6 BC, quote John 5:29 which was not yet written until 85 AD? You cannot quote something that is not yet written.
“fulfilling the words which say: They that have done good shall receive everlasting life; and they that have done evil shall have everlasting damnation.” Helaman 12:26 in 6 BC.
It is obvious that this is a great mistake, proving the Book of Mormon to be a fake, made up by someone who did not know his facts, and who was given to lying. John 5:29 quotes: “And shall come forth: they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that
have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
QUESTION:: Does this verse teach salvation by good works?
Answer: No, because John’s theology forbids this (3:17-21; 6:28,29). It states that those who are truly born again will live a life of good works after salvation. They obey Christ (14:15), they abide in Christ (15:5-7), and they walk in the light (John 8:12). Damnation is
because of rejecting Christ (John 3:36).
Of the 38 cities in the Book of Mormon, leading archaeologists have not found any remains of any of these alleged cities.
The Smithsonian Institute in Washington states:
“There is no correspondence whatever between archaeological sites and cultures as revealed by scientific investigations, and as recorded in the Book of Mormon… Thus far no iron, steel, brass, gold and silver coins, metal, swords, breastplates, arm shields,
armour, horses and chariots, or silk have ever been found in pre-colonial archaeological sites.” Kingdom of the Cults, W. Martin, p.162.
The testimony of the 3 witnesses which appears at the front of the Book of Mormon (Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris)
… declares that: “an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engraving thereon…” Martin Harris denied to Professor Anthon that he had actually seen the plates, but that he only saw them “with the eye of faith.”
Note: All three of these witnesses later apostasized from the Mormon faith, and were described by Mormon contemporaries as thieves and counterfeiters.
Joseph Smith lied to try and prove the book of mormon
Joseph Smith, in an effort to prove the Book of Mormon, claimed in the “Pearl of Great Price” Section 2, verses 62, 63, 64, that Professor Charles Anthon verified the “reformed Egyptian language.”
Smith allegedly quotes Professor Anthon as follows:
“Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic and he said that they were true characters”.
This later proved to be a TOTAL LIE, as Professor Anthon wrote in a letter to E.D. Howe, that he NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING.
Mormons have NEVER been able to refute this letter or ANY of
Howe’s research. An excerpt from Professor Anthon’s letter of rebuttal is as follows:
New York, N.Y., Feb. 17, 1834
Mr E.D. Howe
… The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be “reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” is perfectly false…
Charles Anthon, LL.D. Columbia University.
All reputable linguists who have examined the Mormon evidence have rejected it as mythical.
Mormon misunderstanding of the Sticks of Joseph and Judah in Ezekiel 37:15-23.
Mormons claim that the “stick of Judah” refers to the Bible, and the “stick of Ephraim” refers to the Book of Mormon. They claim that the joining of the 2 sticks refers to the union of the Bible and the Book of Mormon as an addition to the Word of God.
Answer: The subject under discussion is not books, but people and nations. It refers to the then divided nation of Israel (587 BC) of the northern and southern kingdoms becoming reunited as one nation in the land, just before and after Christ’s second coming.
“These bones are the whole house of Israel”. Ezekiel 37:11.
The 2 sticks becoming one stick in Ezekiel’s hand represent Judah (2 1/2 tribes) and Israel (9 1/2 tribes) being united in the end days.
“I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, … and bring them into their own land: I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel,…..they shall be no more 2 nations”. Ezekiel 37:21,22. The Mormon view totally ignores the context, hoping no one will read the passage too carefully.
There are no rivers emptying into the Red Sea.
“… When he had travelled three days in the wilderness, he pitched his tent in a valley by the side of a river of water…. He called the name of the river Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the border near the mouth thereof.” I Nephi 2:4-9.
a) It would have been impossible for an old man (Lehi), women and children to travel the 175 mile journey from Jerusalem to the Red Sea in 3 days.
Question: Could you walk 58 miles per day for 3 days? Travelling 3 miles per hour, you would need to travel for 20 hours each day non-stop for 3 days. This would have been quite impossible.
b) There are no rivers running into the Red Sea along their route, the eastern shore of the Gulf of Aqaba, at this or any other point. There are not even any traceable ancient river systems in this part of Arabia. This part of the world was well known and well travelled in
600 BC. Had there been a river as Nephi describes, the area would have been one of the best known in the world of its day. It would have supported a sizeably populated civilization, as always happened where fresh water was available. The mouth of such a
river would have been a world-renowned port, if not a capital city, in 600 BC.
c) These 6 people then cross 1400 miles of the Arabian peninsula, 400 miles being rugged mountains and 1000 miles of desert.
d) They find a bountiful, fruitful land on the Persian Gulf. Alexander’s troops in 330 BC avoided this as desert area.
e) They then build a ship sufficiently seaworthy to carry them two-thirds around the world in rough seas to the west coast of America, now known as Peru.
American Indians are Mongoloids from East Asia, not Semites from Jerusalem as the Book of Mormon claims.
For 200 years before 1820, many philosophers thought that the American Indians were the lost tribes of Israel. The dark skin of the Indians is not caused by their bad morals, as the Book of Mormon claims, but by genetics. American Indians are Mongoloid, not Jewish, because:
a) Mongoloids lack face and body hair, (growing at most 3 inches of beard in a lifetime), but Jews have much face and body hair.
b) Mongoloid hair is coarse, black & straight, but Jewish Semite hair is moderately fine, wavy and brown.
c) Mongoloids have reddish skin pigmentation, but Jewish Semites have an olive-gray pigmentation.
d) Mongoloids have prominent cheek bones, not like Semites.
e) Mongoloids appear slant-eyed, but Semites have deep seated eyes.
f) Mongoloid babies have a Mongolian spot on their backs. This is a slate-blue round pigment spot that disappears after a few months or years. It is not present on the backs of Jewish or Semite babies.
Hence American Indians could not descend from Jews. Mormons must defend their prophet even if they have to close their eyes to do so.
No coinage system was ever developed in ancient America.
If the alleged ‘Nephites’ were descended from Jews raised in Jerusalem, their coinage and money values would have survived to the New World. Hence Joseph Smith created a system of coinage for people of the Book of Mormon in America. It seems strange that
Smith did not continue using Jewish shekels and talents, but that he devised coins such as senines, seons, shums and limnals of gold.
Unfortunately for Smith, while his guess was logical, it was completely wrong. No system of coinage was ever developed by ancient Americans.
The Mayans who traded had:
a) No money transactions in their records.
b) Their coins would have been discovered in their graves and homes.
c) No coins were found in sacred wells, where so many valuable ornaments and jewels were thrown as offerings to their gods.
d) All the known Mayan media of exchange have been identified, both of their own land, and also along the ancient trade routes of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean Sea, but never have they found metallic money.
e) Columbus was told by a Mayan chieftain in 1502 that all transactions were by barter.
f) Interregional markets were found at Xicalenco, a market town between Aztec and Mayan populations, where Aztec, Mayan, Toltec, Mixtec and Totocan peoples met. Surely if there had been a coined money system it would have been found here.
g) Cacao beans came closest to a standardised medium of exchange for uneven barter.
h) Taxation had no metal coinage, but was a work service.
Question: Why did they have no coinage?
Answer: Because they had no metal until gold was discovered after 600 AD. Gold was used only for ornamentation. Silver was discovered around 900 AD.
There never was an iron age in America before Columbus. In spite of this, Joseph Smith had his ancient Nephites and Lamanites using iron and steel swords. Iron was the scarcest and most valuable metal. Gold was the most plentiful and cheapest metal.
Silk and fine linen have never been successfully grown in America.
Joseph Smith has Alma, a judge of the Nephites in 100 BC, stating that his people possessed “an abundance of silk and fine twined linen, and all manner of good homely cloth.” Alma 1:29.
Smith was wrong here because:
a) Silk was unknown in the Americas until the Europeans came, and that it has never been successfully introduced since then.
b) Cortez tried to grow silk in Mexico in 1522, but the industry died out 75 years later. Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 1959 ed. XX, 664.
c) James I of England in 1609 tried to introduce silk culture in the American colonies, but failed.
d) Silk still has to be imported to the US from the Orient.
e) In Alma 17:25-33, Ammon protects King Lamoni’s flocks from attackers. This is wrong because there were no domestic sheep in America before the Spanish came (Morley, The Ancient Maya, p.408). Central America and southern Mexico never have been
suitable for raising sheep. Sheep could not thrive in jungle country.
Indians wore fabric of rabbit hair, birds’ feathers &Kapok tree. Joseph Smith’s failure to mention these, and his mention of materials totally unknown in any early American period, proves that the Book of Mormon was written by a completely uninformed scribe who knew
nothing of life in Ancient America.
Impossibility of churches, temples and synagogues in America from 539 BC-34AD
a) The Book of Mormon mentions “synagogues” at least 12 times. Alma 16:13 speaks of synagogues “built after the manner of the Jews”. They date synagogues from 559 BC to 34 AD. Nephi and his successors in America could have known nothing of synagogues.
Because synagogues were founded after the Temple’s destruction in 586 BC, when Temple worship was an impossibility because Jews were in Babylonian exile. Nephi would never have seen a synagogue in Israel.
b) II Nephi 5:16 tells us that Nephi built a temple “after the manner of the temple of Solomon”, not more than 20 years after the migrant party landed in America between 588-570 BC. What is wrong with this?
i) They didn’t have enough workers. In I Kings 5:13-18 Solomon needed 183,300 workers (made up of 70,000 labourers + 80,000 stone quarriers, 3300 supervisors + 30,000 loggers) over 7 1/2 years, to build his temple. Yet Nephi had only about 12 adults, because half the company had apostasized. Five couples could not produce more than 50 children in 20 years. It would have been impossible for Nephi, with 5 men’s help, to construct a building requiring many specialised skills.
ii) There could be no practical use for it, because the population was so small (about 20). Solomon’s temple served a nation of several million worshippers.
iii) II Nephi 5:15 says that materials “were in great abundance”.
This contradicts v.16 which says that the materials were ‘not to be found upon the land’.
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; … after the manner of the temple of Solomon, save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land…” v.16.
Here Joseph Smith tripped badly, because he has Nephi saying in the previous verse: “And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores
which were in great abundance.” II Nephi 5:15.
Note: At this same time Smith has Nephi making swords of steel, long before the invention of steel anywhere in the world, to arm his soldiers against about 40 of his apostate brother’s people.
K Twitchell – 2017-08-20 10:42:41-0400
Wow, you wrote all of that in response to my tiny question? Thanks. That takes a lot of time.
It’s funny though; you didn’t mention the heading to the book of 1st Nephi, so I didn’t get a lot out of it.
I’m not going to change your opinion of the Book of Mormon, and you’re not going to change mine. My question started from a basis of faith in the book, your answer from the opposite. It seems you have a deep belief in God, as do I. Given the title you’ve chosen, it seems we also have a deep belief in Jesus Christ. Of course our definition of both of those “people” if you will is likely very different; one evidence of that is my belief in the Book of Mormon, recently subtitled “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” And so I suspect you, clearly having researched many things about the book, can point out all of those differences as well.
But you’re not going to convince me that the Savior described by the New Testament is very different than the one described by the Book of Mormon, and I’m not going to convince you they are the same.
I could engage you in long winded arguments, perhaps simply to waste your time so you can’t attempt to destroy the faith of others who believe now, perhaps less surely, as I do. But then you would also be wasting my time as well. As I noted in my first Google+ entry: ” I am interested in what others really think, but at times may not be interested in debating it. I only have so much time for my study, and as the farmer responded as he held up a pig to eat apples off a tree and was asked if that doesn’t take a lot of time, ‘What’s time to a pig?””
But others may see our exchange here, and be interested in my position, even if you aren’t really. And in matters of faith, which cannot be proven (proof follows faith, just as evidence gathering follows a hypothesis in science), it helps to start conversations from a shared belief, which for us is in Jesus Christ. Let me start there.
I believe Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten son of God, the Eternal Father, a God come among us, Emmanuel, to provide us a way to return to God. He first provided a perfect, sinless life as an example of how we should live in every aspect of our lives, family life, worship, service, employment, public and political life; He followed the perfect plan of His Father and His example to us is perfect.
More than that, he provided a free gift to every living soul; that of the universal resurrection, wherein all will at a future day stand in their body once again after death, and have the universally sought for gift of immortality.
But immortality is not the same as Eternal Life, a life with God. Jesus Christ also made this possible. Those who confess His name, which if done with sincerity of heart and real intent, will cause them to also attempt to do the same kinds of works He has done, to confess their weaknesses and short-comings and consistently repent and strive to do better; to serve God through service to His children; those who covenant to do this by taking His name upon them and do this throughout their lives; who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit and endure to the end of their lives, will have the chance to stand before Him, and have a hope that through His infinite grace and mercy, He will wash them clean and allow them to humbly stand on His right hand.
These very high standards will challenge every human to their utmost. Because God loves us so deeply, he has provided more help. Before Christ he provided prophets that pointed the way to His life. In our day He has restored knowledge lost about Jesus Christ. One way He has done this is through the Prophet Joseph Smith. I recognize I am now departing, surely, from any shared belief, but this point is important to explain why I believe in the Book of Mormon.
God loves us, in this day, near the “end” of this world’s temporal existence, as deeply as He loved Adam and Eve at its beginning. And so He condescended with his Son Jesus Christ in the Spring of 1820 to visit an obscure boy, Joseph Smith, in upstate New York, and begin the process of revealing lost truths about Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith’s primary mission in the world is a revelatory of Jesus Christ. It is primarily through his teachings and works that I have come to understand what I have written about Jesus Christ above. But Joseph Smith’s teaching of Jesus Christ go well beyond that contained in the New Testament.
Surely his work expands Jesus’s role backwards from his miraculous birth to deeply connect it with the Old Testament in a way completely lost in the world; the Book of Mormon is the primary means of doing this, showing that people 600 years before Christ’s birth had a much deeper belief in and knowledge of him than anything shown in the Old Testament.
It does not stop there: Joseph Smith revealed that the early prophets, including Moses, Abraham, Enoch and even Adam understood that Jesus Christ’s role predated the creation of the world. Joseph restored the words spoken and written by those prophets in the Pearl of Great Price.
And Joseph Smith expanded our understand of Christ forward from what is recorded in the New Testament, starting again with the Book of Mormon showing an engaged Savior for hundreds of years after his crucifixion. Through the restoration of his Church and the revelations recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith revealed Christ’s continuing influence today in authoritative ways through His restored church for the salvation of man today, and through sacred ordinances he expanded Christ’s ability to provide salvation to every living soul who has ever lived, whether or not they ever heard his name in their time upon the earth.
Joseph Smith the prophet also restored truths about Christ’s role in the future, that He will come again upon the earth, and reign personally; the He will judge every mortal who has ever lived. And He will do so as the loving, caring, all wise, all knowing Son of Most High that He is.
This response is getting too long; in conclusion let me say I love Pascal’s Wager. It will not prove anything to anyone, but Christ’s gift of the universal resurrection means that you and I are eternal beings; we will live forever. The answer to the question if there is life after death will ultimately be known by everyone, a few moments after death. And you and I will, I suspect, come to a deeper knowledge of the issues we have discussed here. As eternal beings, I believe we will have the chance to ask Joseph Smith about some questions we may have; and Abraham as well. I believe we will be able to do so with Nephi and Mormon as well. You obviously do not believe we will. But surely we will both know, at some point, which of us is right and which of us is mistaken.
It seems to me you spend a great deal of time working to convince people to believe in Christ. That is a great work. I do as well. We are brothers in that respect, and I suspect Christ is pleased with our efforts to do so.
May you be successful in doing that Good work. And wouldn’t it be strange if He called us up together before Him to jointly explain to Him the good work we have done in that way, in brotherhood. “Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:” (Ephesians 4:13)
Jesus Defender – 2017-08-20 19:20:09-0400
K Twitchell – 2017-08-21 11:03:30-0400
Thank you for your simple, respectful response. You made me think over night. I am certain you do not rely upon archeological evidence for your belief in the Bible; I don’t do so for belief in it or the Book of Mormon either. I wondered though in what ways you feel we believe in a different God based upon my statements about Christ above? Certainly there are areas where we believe differently, but I attempted to summarize my beliefs in the most important things, those things at the heart of my faith.
I’m grateful for the brotherhood I feel with others who proclaim His name, whether members of my church or not. All the best.
Jesus Defender – 2017-08-21 18:52:59-0400
+K Twitchell I rely on MANY things for my belief in the Bible. One of the main thing is that there is ZERO evidence AGAINST anything in the Bible. ie, it is scientifically, archaeologically, prophetically, linguistically and historically accurate. plus, the Bible is not a book but a collection of 66 books, written over a span of 1600 years across 3 continents, by over 40 writers inspired by God in 3 languages.
Now, take the book of mormon. joe used the book View of the Hebrews and the KJV and plagurised them. Remember, his mother testified that joe had been sharing the book of mormon tales around the fire LONG before the apparent vision ( whichever of the 9 different versions you chose to believe ) happened.
The book of mormon contains NUMEROUS errors that no amount of praying about will change.
Its like believing an apple is an orange. The facts are that it is an apple. You believe it is an orange.
Thank you for being grateful. Your leaders have certainly attacked Christians and Christianity over the years.
K Twitchell – 2017-08-21 22:00:11-0400
Jesus Defender – 2017-08-22 00:02:12-0400
+K Twitchell Nothing that i can immediately think of. But, you can use the NAME of Jesus or Christ just like i can, but WHO are we talking about?
Its like if i know someone called Bob. You know someone else called Bob.
Now, could we have a conversation about Bob without first defining WHO we are talking about? No.